Force mods to give explanation about their actions.

IMO:

One of the reason about why we have a un-nice kind of community depends of many factors.

Some of them cannot be changed (All the strategic games I've played always are played by people with some kind of knowledge, and they tend to argue).

Some of them are still waiting to be changed (HTML version had delay many stuff, eh? I guess the help channel, the present systems and the tutorial fits here.)

And some of them can be simply changed by writting a small paragraph on the official AtWar rules. I am talking about forcing a mod to give explanations about their actions.

I'd also like to re-bring up the idea of having a choose mod to which we can discuss and appeal other mod action. Always though mods works for the community, but right now it seems like the community just work for the mods. They earn powers for mod us, but we don't have any power for mod them. How so?

Rather than forcing a Mod to give explanations, I would work on something that allows/facilitates/motivates a Mod to communicate his decisions and other issues.
Forcing always refers to an enforcing entity and I do not really see any possible enforcing authority beyond the actual one (Admins). Lets work on incentives!

Napisano od clovis1122, 31.03.2015 at 18:52

IMO:
And some of them can be simply changed by writting a small paragraph on the official AtWar rules. I am talking about forcing a mod to give explanations about their actions.

Maybe the word forced is strong, but I think Clovis is trying to make the point that moderators should perhaps, have the same set of procedure that map-makers have in terms of their ban-list, with screenshots for proof etc. Maybe more work for moderators, however i agree with Clovis that players do deserve at least this, should the punishment be served effectively anyway.

Napisano od Columna Durruti, 31.03.2015 at 20:35

Rather than forcing a Mod to give explanations, I would work on something that allows/facilitates/motivates a Mod to communicate his decisions and other issues.
Forcing always refers to an enforcing entity and I do not really see any possible enforcing authority beyond the actual one (Admins). Lets work on incentives!

Well... not very good at english, didn't know any other word that would describe its intensity. I wrote the word thinking more like " wtf why you don't tell me what I did bad?"

While the admins would'be ideal, I think an older mod in which they trust can help on it. After all I guess mods knows more about their team than admins

But either way, it as easy as write it on the rules really... since mods decides what is an explanation, but at least I do not expect them to try explaning a punishment like

"A"

then say

"A is enough explanation".

But more of this format: lets say someones send a shocking link in global and get muted. He ask for explanation:

If pm*

"<Quote of the rules>
. You've send a shocking link on Global. Here's the log <img of the log> ."

if pr in game*

"You've broked rule #$ . "

---

It doesn't ever need to be that long, it can even be as short as "Read rule #$" but always giving a reference to the rules. Even talking only once to that person and then ignoring him or her the rest of his life would be awesome, but plz just give explanation godammit...

An user should also be able to ask about other's person punishment, not him or her.

Napisano od Sun Tsu, 31.03.2015 at 21:14

[...] that moderators should perhaps, have the same set of procedure that map-makers have in terms of their ban-list, with screenshots for proof etc[...]

YES! I mean this

But we already have that procedure, we just don't openly list them nor answer to the community. Serious offences that gain account bans has the reason/explanation listed on the offending profile. Light things like muting in game(unless we're after an offline account) don't need this every single time, usually the person knows what they did. If they're a new player they can be pr'd and told. Through the many warns and mutes every single day it'd be too much to add reasons for every action with the current mod console under the current system.

We need a revamp of the mod console just as much as everyone else needs their game updates.

If you're talking about a publicly viewable list of reasons, perhaps some kind of appeal forum could be created and people can make their case there instead of trying to justify themselves by making a thread in General Discussion. However, it would only be something to appease those who like to argue, as moderator decisions are usually final and some kind of "Appeal Court" wouldn't change many decisions, if any at all. And, if created, we'd only allow the OP to post and only moderators to reply so we don't have any community comments.

You also seem to suggest a "Senior Moderator" position, someone you want to work for the community to make sure our actions are justified. We already do that to eachother. We do call out when someone is wrong and try to correct it. But this is behind the wall inside mod forums or mod chat, so you wouldn't see it openly. This is unlikely to happen.

And no, the players have no need to ask about another person's punishment. It isn't your business unless you're both in trouble. If you want to help, give your "proof of innocence" and arguments to the person in question and let them argue it. You're not welcome to involve yourself, as this makes it a popularity contest where people just want to help someone they know.

Napisano od clovis1122, 31.03.2015 at 18:52

I'd also like to re-bring up the idea of having a choose mod to which we can discuss and appeal other mod action. Always though mods works for the community, but right now it seems like the community just work for the mods. They earn powers for mod us, but we don't have any power for mod them. How so?

I'm trying to dissect these lines but your English is a bit off so I'm not sure if I got the meaning correct. I'll respond with what I assume to be the correct interpretation of your last line.

No, moderators work for the general health of the community and game, not for any specific player or set of players. Unlike democracy, where a politician gains power from the his/her electors, we were not given power to work for you. Moderators owe the community nothing. We have stated goals to uphold and we are given that trust by the administrators. That is the end of it.

I fully agree with Columna Durruti and Desu.

Although Desu didn't have to (and probably shouldn't have) put it so harshly.

For the sake of colours I'll leave your argument intact, desu. But let me give you two important pierces of information.

1) You are not being asked to give explanations when someone doesn't ask you for it. You are being asked to give explanations when someone does ask you for them.

2)If mods trully appeal themselves, then I do expect them to appeal your definition of moderatorship. I do also expect anyone here to appeal your definition of community, as you seems to be describing it as "Players or set of players".

---

Napisano od International, 01.04.2015 at 03:15

I fully agree with Columna Durruti and Desu.

Although Desu didn't have to (and probably shouldn't have) put it so harshly.

I think you've got it wrong. Columna's opinion is about something that:

"allows/facilitates/motivates a Mod to communicate his decisions and other issues"

While Desu's opinion is about:

"Light things like muting in game(unless we're after an offline account) don't need this every single time, usually the person knows what they did."

One support to give explanation, the other doesn't as long as he thinks the other player know what they did. Just in case you are guessing, no, is not in your definition of those term.

Who are they giving explanations to? If it is anyone other than the person in question then it just to me seems to be making the system over bureaucratic.(paper work clovis)

Player A has done something wrong, then it is up to Player A to appeal to another moderator so that, that moderator can question the other moderator, none of that needs to be public though since it does not concern the wider public, if that is what you are getting at.

''I'd also like to re-bring up the idea of having a choose mod to which we can discuss and appeal other mod action''

Well there are 15 or so mods, not hard to do that already, no need for a 'designated' mod.

STOP MODE ABUSE !also OPI FOR MODE 2015 !

Napisano od b0nker2, 02.04.2015 at 06:33

Player A has done something wrong, then it is up to Player A to appeal to another moderator so that, that moderator can question the other moderator, none of that needs to be public though since it does not concern the wider public, if that is what you are getting at.

Let me fix that setence for you, so it actually goes according to what is being discussed here.

Player A lose global chat forever.
Mod A did the punisment.
Player A ask Mod A for explanations.
Mod A simply doesn't reply.

---

Even though the part where I purpose that one person can ask a mod about someone's punishment, that I will need to point out it was reffering to ASK, not HELP as Desu scare-crowed in his argument (And now you've just made it bigger, by talking about revealing said information to wider public).

Now I provide you two examples about what I am talking about, and what is the point of that suggestion.

1) If one of my friends get banned I should be able to ask a moderator about it.

2) If certain player go to a thread for post off-topic comments that concerns to me, I should be able to ask for explanations about why it got upvoted, rather than removed, by said mod. I should receive more explanations than "It should be self-evident".

---

Thinking now, a report button would've great

I agree with Bonker that it will over bureaucratic . This game doesn't have a lot of players anyway.

Maybe you can share why you want this and maybe we can find some other solutions to this.

It is really needed,so when some mods change your pass and give to someone never answered in pm or pr too,but okay,i will shut up about that here.
Fully agree with clovis,giving explanation about their actions must be rule for mods.
And i'd like if mods dont have that a lot powers....it's idiotic that all mod can change your pass and give to someone other.......
Mbe you 2 mods dont have a lot pr's in game or pm's,but deviL has because only he is answering,thats sign that game has a lot players and that moderators need to work better.

Napisano od minusSeven, 02.04.2015 at 23:50

I agree with Bonker that it will over bureaucratic . This game doesn't have a lot of players anyway.

Maybe you can share why you want this and maybe we can find some other solutions to this.

So you do something wrong, a mod ban you and then you agree with them that you don't need the right for ask why you got banned?

really... wtf is wrong with everybody here.

You are asking too much clovis lol. Personally i would be happy if cry threads about bans and mutes werent instantly locked and allowed to be carried on for a little while.Sometimes they are usefull and even if not they are always amusing

also i would love if some mods stop abusing their powers like that mod named Acquisce he mutes me every time i say that Oasis suck and their singer is an ugly black teeth junkie. Its not fair, im just telling the truth!

Yes,but SP from acc of someone that someone other farmed isnt owned by owner of acc.

Napisano od Skanderbeg, 03.04.2015 at 11:14

But if they change password on owner's request they dont need to provide an explanation to anyone as they just helped a player.

Yes they do. Do you know how many BS could had be skipped by just explaining that it was made by owner request? Making the post just for get explanation and making the post just for call out the issue are two different things mate.

So, really, you are going to get cancer because someones know what happened. For real.... I don't know if laugh or get mad. Don't really know.


clarifying:

Napisano od clovis1122, 02.04.2015 at 11:54

Even though the part where I purpose that one person can ask a mod about someone's punishment, that I will need to point out it was reffering to ASK, not HELP as Desu scare-crowed in his argument (And now you've just made it bigger, by talking about revealing said information to wider public).

Napisano od Khal.eesi, 03.04.2015 at 11:36

You are asking too much clovis lol. Personally i would be happy if cry threads about bans and mutes werent instantly locked and allowed to be carried on for a little while.Sometimes they are usefull and even if not they are always amusing

I am not asking for keep cry threads open. There is already a civilized manner for talk about this type of issue (PM and PR in game). I am just saying that if someones ask you for explanations you must give it godammit!!! You want to be banned and not know why? You want to lose global but watch how X, Y and Z player post worsen and doesn't ever get his message removed?

Citat:

i think you guys dont have a respected rules to follow... you just do what ever you want and noone can prevent you from doing anything
such as : player1+player2=both abused chat
one is hated by mods = 999999min mute other 15min
or something personally happened with me which is:
some mod(with out saying names) when i stole some player name using alt the mod gave the player his name back
when i asked for my name which got stolen by the same person the mod didnt give me it back :/
i hope you understood the point

Napisano od Khal.eesi, 03.04.2015 at 11:36

You are asking too much clovis lol. Personally i would be happy if cry threads about bans and mutes werent instantly locked and allowed to be carried on for a little while.Sometimes they are usefull and even if not they are always amusing

also i would love if some mods stop abusing their powers like that mod named Acquisce he mutes me every time i say that Oasis suck and their singer is an ugly black teeth junkie. Its not fair, im just telling the truth!

cthlhue mutes for saying evol fag when he was in evol all chat for 1day me+chill+hollister+monkey+juger+alot other this is a abuse for rules rigth?!
while when he see people call each others retarded/gays/shity country belong(albania) and thats normal!

Napisano od clovis1122, 02.04.2015 at 16:17

Thinking now, a report button would've great

/report?

Napisano od SyrianDevil, 05.04.2015 at 18:52

/report?

Yes, but for mods

Proof of mods not explaining actions please.

Anyways, when you get banned and try to log in there's an explanation of why you got banned. If you spam on global with your shit then it's obvious a mod wouldn't want to explain, since you already know (and it's obvious you're trolling).

If a friend wants to ask specifics for why their friend got banned? Pretty sure mods do answer, I don't remember which mod(probably devil) but I asked why someone got banned and got my reason etc...

But yeah, I don't understand why this came up now since there hasn't been a major incident (pavle got his prem back so it's solved )

Napisano od Guest, 05.04.2015 at 19:35

----

So let me go straight to the point.

If (as you've said) mods does give explanations, then what is the deal with making this an official rule? basically this change won't affect you on anything, so why no support?

Napisano od clovis1122, 05.04.2015 at 20:17

Napisano od Guest, 05.04.2015 at 19:35

----

So let me go straight to the point.

If (as you've said) mods does give explanations, then what is the deal with making this an official rule? basically this change won't affect you on anything, so why no support?

Why fix something when it's not broken.

EDIT: And if you also agree with me, then I don't see what the big fuss is. Seems like a rant towards mods if not anything else.

If you got in trouble, you must have broken the rules. Thus, you go and read the rules and compare the rules to what you did. If you feel what you did does not break the rules, you PM the mod explaining your case.

There is no reason for an explanation. The explanation is the same for every mute/ban; you broke the rules.

Napisano od Guest, 05.04.2015 at 21:07

Why fix something when it's not broken.

EDIT: And if you also agree with me, then I don't see what the big fuss is. Seems like a rant towards mods if not anything else.

Why let something that can get broke to get broke? There is no rule that encourages mods to explain you what you've one bad, or why they did such actions. Why do you want to wait till something like this affect you?

I do agree, as you've said, that there are some mods that does explain you their actions, regardless of the existence of this rule. But still, there are some mods who doesn't. You've asked for proof about said action, I just want to tell you that I won't give it here. But said case does exist, and you cannot trust that moderators will always give explanations when they are not encouraged to.

Napisano od Fockmeeard, 05.04.2015 at 21:13

If you got in trouble, you must have broken the rules.

Napisano od Fockmeeard, 05.04.2015 at 21:13

There is no reason for an explanation. The explanation is the same for every mute/ban; you broke the rules.

We both know both sentences are not true. However your argument can be manipulated as easy as "If you breath, you've broke the rule said by nobody that you cannot breath. So is obvious you are going to get economical troubles".

For avoid future misunderstanding, I am assuming that by troubles you are referring to a moderator's action and by rules you are referring to At War official rules. By reasons you are referring to the implementation of this rule (that would give reasons for explanations)

---

Now, you've stated that you can only get in troubles if you broke any rule. But we are humans, Fock. Own moderators already recognized that they are humans, and therefore, something called "Bias" will always exist among ourselves. Other thing called "Error" does as well. You cannot assume that moderator actions are 100% legit. Maybe you could've said "If you go in troubles, you probably broke the rules".

For resume: So yes, you can get in troubles without broke the rules.

Napisano od Fockmeeard, 05.04.2015 at 21:13

If you feel what you did does not break the rules, you PM the mod explaining your case.

Already tried, and just when I saw that there was no rule that encourage that mod to actually tell me the why he had done said action I decide to make this thread. You encourage me to go and resolve this in PM, but I tried, and he just ignore me. However, nowhere in the rule it says he cannot simply ignore it, so cannot appeal him on his right. What do you want me to do?

I won't make a cry thread.
I won't try to pillory him on forums.

This was my idea, to reclaim my right on a fashion manner. I am just claiming for what I consider should be a right from the community to the moderator team. Unless you also thinks as Desu does (and trust, think that the community is simply a "player or set of players"). If you think so, then you would've just up vote his comment and it is all done.

For resume: Yes, I did PM the moderator several times. Yes, he saw the message. Yes, he ignored it (I send it on different times, and AW tells you when someone see message and when someone does not). And yes, I've made this thread cause I think we should have the right to ask for explanations.

---

---

So for real, I don't know if you either think I am lying, or that moderators are just too perfect to not commit error (and trust, I am lying). Whatever is the case I suggest you to re-read the rules and confirm with your own eyes.

Or maybe you are confusing the words "Explanation" with "Help, discuss, argue". I've let it clear in previous replies that by explanation I am reffering to a small paragraph, that points out which rule you had break and with which action. After giving this explanation, I don't care, the moderator can just ignore the guy forever, without need to reply. Once again, who decides what is an explanation and what is not are THE MODS, but is not like they cannot assume something as explanation when it doesn't support itself in the rules.

Valid example of explanation:

<User1 spam global>
<Mod8 mute User1>
<User1 ask Mod8 why he muted him. >
<Mod8 tell User1 his actions, and the # of the AtWar official rules that his action broke>
<User1 want to discuss about this punishment>
<Mod8 add User1 to ignore list and never ever see him on his life>

Is this a valid example? YES. Since the point of this thread is not to "ask moderators to argue with someone till he think mods actions are right".

Not valid example of Explanation:

<User1 spam global>
<Mod8 mute User1>
<User1 ask Mod8 why he muted him. >
<Mod8 add User1 to ignore list and never ever see him on his life>

Note the difference? In one case the user knows what he did bad. In the other he doesn't. Actually, he can probably do the same again and get punished harder cause he doesn't know what he did bad.

And last, since you will probably ask, "If he knows that he spammed global then he know what he did wrong"...

I'll repeat: If an user ask a mod why he got punished, is pretty likely that he doesn't know what he did wrong. I am not asking for give explanation for anything, but only when asked.

And yes, I trust that the cases in which someone ask for explanation because he doesn't know why the mod didn't made such action or made such action are by far more than the cases when someone ask for trolling/disturbing/get mad a moderator.

Personally whenever i had a problem or been in trouble, mods always replied my pms and answered my questions. So i cant relate to people who got ignored. That being said, if you get punished by a mod and he ignores your messages after (inbox not in game, as he can be afk), i think that tis illegal under atwars rules and should get reported, wether to other mods or on the forums. Right?

p.s. clovis make your posts smaller cause theres no way in hell im reading those walls of text.

Napisano od Khal.eesi, 06.04.2015 at 03:59

Personally whenever i had a problem or been in trouble, mods always replied my pms and answered my questions. So i cant relate to people who got ignored. That being said, if you get punished by a mod and he ignores your messages after (inbox not in game, as he can be afk), i think that tis illegal under atwars rules and should get reported, wether to other mods or on the forums. Right?

p.s. clovis make your posts smaller cause theres no way in hell im reading those walls of text.

Okay in short:

1) No, is not illegal. He can ignore you as there is no rule that encourage him to tell you. This thread is basically made so moderators makes a rule in which they need to give explanation when asked.

2) You cannot report it on forums, as there is a rule that prevent you from doing it (We call it "Cry thread", they call it "Pillory"). Both Rules #13 and Rules #14 prevent this from happening, and give mods the right to lock the thread, or even punish the user "as they think it need to be done".

Yes, you can report it to a moderator, or even an admid. Nice idea ... but again, there is no rule about this type of issues. A guideline would help...

Anyway for now I am just looking for this to get implemented. How to appeal and negotiate a punishment is totally optional, but explanation should be given!!!