More Power to Mapmakers

Objave: 460 Posjećeno od: 147 users

Orginalna objava

Objavljeno od KYBL, 11.01.2015 - 13:03

In light of Martell announcing that he is going to take down his RP map, it brings up another important issue, that of how much power a mapmaker should have.

Martell is taking down his map because his ban list is not being respected. The children who played his map would go to moderators because they think that their bans were "unfair" or "unjust" and the moderators would then step in and threaten Martell.

This is a disgusting abuse of moderator's powers. Moderators are here to enforce the AtWar basic rules so that AtWar can be a safe environment and free from spam and trolls. They are not here to regulate mapmakers. Mapmakers are the people who keep this game running, as without their maps, far less people would play AtWar. It is the hard work and creativity of the mapmakers that makes this game special. Moderators stepping in and regulating does not make the game any safer or better, it only causes mapmakers to close down their maps, feel bullied by "big government", and sometimes even flee from the game as the outcome of their hard work is not worth the effort.

Mapmakers should be able to ban people from their maps for whatever reason they want. If the mapmaker is truly abusing his power on banning people, the market will take its course, and the map will not be played as often as there are either too many bans or people do not think highly of the mapmaker. It is not like the maps made are the only ones available, all of them are easily substituted with another map of similar value. If you really think your ban was unjustified, go play another, similar map. The people bitching about being banned from Martell's map can easily go to Tempted's map. If they are banned from both, then my assumption would be that they truly deserved it.

Also, my map is my work and my property. Forcing me to allow people to use my map who I don't want is forcing me to work hard on creating these maps for certain people who I did not voluntarily agree to work for or suffer consequences, which is essentially slavery. You cannot force me to allow people to use my property.

Mapmakers, it's time to stand up for yourselves.

[EDITED BY CTHULHU]: Martell's thread has been deleted by Martell

Milton Friedman Objave: 245 Od: Norveška	16.01.2015 - 10:23 Milton Friedman Napisano od Goblin, 13.01.2015 at 11:09 Napisano od Milton Friedman, 13.01.2015 at 09:25 Your arguments are based on the illusion that you are making your own stuff on your own property. Your maps are uploaded to atWar, which makes all of your rights nullified since you don't own atWar. Its just like if I am taking my phone to a friend's house. It's maybe my phone, but I can only use it, or even bring it, if I am allowed by the host, as it his property. And if I am allowed to, I will have to follow the rules set by the property owner on how I can use it, again since it is his property. Nope ...another stupid comparisons and invalid argumments ...i payed for the tools, i created my own background for the map and i am creating my map, its mine, i also payed to be able to publish it on atWar. Im sorry ...did i forget to buy a DLC or something? Your argumments are false ...please do try again. Khalessis rant about poor people not able to enjoy atWar is rubbish ...people didnt pay me to enjoy the map i made ...discussions about justifiable bans or not are irrelevant, i can share the thing i made with who i please and if i dont want some asshole playing on my work my rights beat his. I never said they weren't yours, you are just putting words in my mouth. Yes you paid to be able to publish maps on the terms set by admins. The banlist was implemented long after custom maps, and it is a separate feature. Everyone can use banlists, so you have not paid to use banlist. Therefore you will have to use it as admins think it should be used. And they have seen this thread and others like it, but they still allow the mods to regulate the banlist feature, so we can assume they don't want you to ban for silly reasons. ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Columna Durruti Inglourious Basterds Objave: 6899 Od: Kosta Rika	16.01.2015 - 10:36 Columna Durruti Napisano od Goblin, 16.01.2015 at 07:17 Napisano od Columna Durruti, 16.01.2015 at 06:35 5. Bans from hosted games are free. This is wrong ...this should be bound by rules as same as the custom maps. Not really. Our appreciation is that people have the right to choose with whom to play. Ban from hosted games is like an a priori kick from game. Only problem I see is for CW games; where bans should not apply. Napisano od Goblin, 16.01.2015 at 07:17 Im looking forward to see this rules that will be issued instead of just "silly reasons are bad" that mods could one sidedly interpret as they please instead of enforcing the specific rules. I did chose the map makers side here to support and ...mainly debated for fun ...truth be told both sides have arguments (only anti-map maker side didnt give a single good one). • it is map makers maps and they are free to do whatever they want with their map its not communities like some suggested, its absolute property of the map maker and he has full power over it, he can chose with who he wants to share his map with or whatever he wants to do with it. • but, once the map maker choses to "publish" the map (thus sharing it with everyone) he agrees to admins rules of conduct (you cant even publish anything you want - porn, forbiden imagery). Desu said it isnt map makers "right" to ban ...yes it is, that right was given to them by the admins, but under the term that if you want this "rights" when you publish your map you have to play by our rules. • they didnt give does rules and mods were free to arbitrarily decide and revoke map makers arbitrary decisions if they found them "silly" while the map maker might consider the reasons to be just. Map makers have the power over their maps. This is right. They can choose to edit it the way they want (in worst case it is forcefully unpublished if it insulting or SP farming; in other cases there can be an SP deduction % applied to them). BUT, lets just remember that the banlist feature was introduced when SOME map makers complained about trolling players that led to tons of failed games. The discussion was held, supported (critically) by mods and facilitated by them to the admins, who introduced this feature. Since then, most of map makers have taken advantage of this tool to ban players that did not stick to the map/scenario rules (like WF'ing, early leavers, trolls, spammers, etc.). In some cases - emphasis on SOME - the bans were also applied without a reason (regarding specific player's enjoyment jeopardizing behavior), thus, not fulfilling the original purpose of the tool: to guarantee game enjoyment. I guess this is the issue at stake: some bans by some map makers are mere arbitrary decisions based on "I don't like this player". The original purpose wasn't this; in my opinion it is a misuse of the feature. Last but not least, just don't think that there is a division between map-makers and anti-map-makers. It is just a matter of difference in opinion as to how the banlist should be used; responsibly or for personal grief! ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Goblin Stalins Martians Objave: 3290 Od: Hrvatska	16.01.2015 - 10:40 Goblin Napisano od Milton Friedman, 16.01.2015 at 10:23 I never said they weren't yours, you are just putting words in my mouth. Yes you paid to be able to publish maps on the terms set by admins. The banlist was implemented long after custom maps, and it is a separate feature. Everyone can use banlists, so you have not paid to use banlist. Therefore you will have to use it as admins think it should be used. And they have seen this thread and others like it, but they still allow the mods to regulate the banlist feature, so we can assume they don't want you to ban for silly reasons. Dude ...did you read what i wrote above and then decided to "debate" one of my posts with another of my posts. xD I debated for both sides here because you all suck and refuse to find a solution. ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Columna Durruti Inglourious Basterds Objave: 6899 Od: Kosta Rika	16.01.2015 - 10:42 Columna Durruti Napisano od clovis1122, 16.01.2015 at 07:35 Napisano od Columna Durruti, 16.01.2015 at 06:35 2. Mods have no intention in controlling who and who isn't banned; rather enforce a rule that will be issued shortly. I really think Mods and MapMarkers should work together: Two or more different interpretation of a rule would cause more differences, but also less bias results. Which bring us to the suggestion I've deleted..... Napisano od clovis1122, 14.01.2015 at 08:09 ~~(deleted by chill)~~ -A continuation of the last idea would also be, that the banlist threat get administrated by 6 people. There should be two MapMarkers, two regulated members that are not in MapMarker team nor in Mods team, and two mods. Both the Mods and MapMarker should be as neutral as possible in this type of issue for avoid possible bias. It could ever work if there was one mod, one MapMarker and one regular person. Following the idea, Tunder3 suggested a variation of it: Napisano od Tundy, 13.01.2015 at 21:12 I will help you add to the idea of the commite to monitor the appealing system made by pulse No leader in Map makers committee of course - Only Map makers ...consisting of Makers who's maps are most played - Number should be high and odd ...to avoid inactive players - Offer of course for Columna to be a part of the committee ...to appease the mods - 1 committee member 1 vote - When the appeal shows certain there is a dead line in which members must vote - Total number of members is not necessary for a decision ...and it shouldnt be a total number - Random members vote on every other appeal to avoid bias and players knowing who will vote on their appeal - members can be added or changed Just check this: https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=14652 Where this idea was presented (30.7.2014): Only addition I would make now is the ban from hosted games should not apply to CWs. ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Quantum027 First Order Objave: 1201 Od: USA	16.01.2015 - 11:21 Quantum027 Napisano od Columna Durruti, 16.01.2015 at 06:35 Napisano od Quantum027, 15.01.2015 at 22:55 Napisano od Columna Durruti, 15.01.2015 at 20:02 Napisano od Aetius, 15.01.2015 at 19:12 Napisano od Columna Durruti, 15.01.2015 at 18:59 I support any proposal that promotes the responsible use of the banlist feature. Bans should be grounded, justified and applied to those players that de facto jeopardize the enjoyment of games. According to who? Mods? Why do we need to prove it to mods? What level of proof is needed? What do they have anything to do with our maps? Just read the pages above. In the pages above we havent agreed on a clear answer to his questions, map makers feel that moderation has no business dealing with their ban lists of their maps and mods believe that they have every right to control who is banned and who isnt. 1. Some map makers use the banlist feature for their own grief; other map makers respect the original idea of banlist: ban trolls, rule-breakers, wf'ers, trolls, etc. 2. Mods have no intention in controlling who and who isn't banned; rather enforce a rule that will be issued shortly. 3. Bans from maps/scenarios are not free; they have to be argued... for the sake of game enjoyment (and the respective map/scenario). 4. Map/scenario enjoyment and ban of players that jeopardize this was/is the reason for the implementation of banlist feature. 5. Bans from hosted games are free. What is not understandable? 2. enforcing a rule to remove bans not supported with screenshots to mods is the mods idea of controlling, you cant claim you aren't trying to control then you demand we provide evidence to every ban or else we lose the right to ban people. 3. Why arent bans from maps/scenarios free? because you say so? why do you get a bigger voice than myself or other map makers? our voice doesnt matter as long as you and the mods have an opinion? this is what we are fighting against here, to prove that we do have a voice in things that we create (aka maps). "The sake of game enjoyment" is a load of bull, if a player is being a jerk and constantly spamming hate at me and being a negative person why is it beneficial to let them join my game, only to troll and spam the chat and be a nuisance, they arent breaking any "rule" that mods support and I can not ban them under your rules but they are still a deterrence to my gameplay and the other people who are just here to play my maps. 4. Number 4 is our point exactly, how is it beneficial to the community to have to go to mods just to enforce a ban on our own maps? Like i have said before these are maps created by map makers, while I recognize that the admins own the game and thus they have partial say, but mods have no say in a person's map. Also if the mods make a rule against our banlist I will not follow it, rules are made by the Admins and since the mods have a clear bias, passing a rule will only represent a one sided opinion of the situation Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Columna Durruti Inglourious Basterds Objave: 6899 Od: Kosta Rika	16.01.2015 - 11:35 Columna Durruti Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 11:21 2. enforcing a rule to remove bans not supported with screenshots to mods is the mods idea of controlling, you cant claim you aren't trying to control then you demand we provide evidence to every ban or else we lose the right to ban people. Napisano od Columna Durruti, 16.01.2015 at 10:36 Map makers have the power over their maps. This is right. They can choose to edit it the way they want (in worst case it is forcefully unpublished if it insulting or SP farming; in other cases there can be an SP deduction % applied to them). BUT, lets just remember that the banlist feature was introduced when SOME map makers complained about trolling players that led to tons of failed games. The discussion was held, supported (critically) by mods and facilitated by them to the admins, who introduced this feature. Since then, most of map makers have taken advantage of this tool to ban players that did not stick to the map/scenario rules (like WF'ing, early leavers, trolls, spammers, etc.). In some cases - emphasis on SOME - the bans were also applied without a reason (regarding specific player's enjoyment jeopardizing behavior), thus, not fulfilling the original purpose of the tool: to guarantee game enjoyment. I guess this is the issue at stake: some bans by some map makers are mere arbitrary decisions based on "I don't like this player". The original purpose wasn't this; in my opinion it is a misuse of the feature. Last but not least, just don't think that there is a division between map-makers and anti-map-makers. It is just a matter of difference in opinion as to how the banlist should be used; responsibly or for personal grief! Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 11:21 3. Why arent bans from maps/scenarios free? because you say so? why do you get a bigger voice than myself or other map makers? our voice doesnt matter as long as you and the mods have an opinion? this is what we are fighting against here, to prove that we do have a voice in things that we create (aka maps). "The sake of game enjoyment" is a load of bull, if a player is being a jerk and constantly spamming hate at me and being a negative person why is it beneficial to let them join my game, only to troll and spam the chat and be a nuisance, they arent breaking any "rule" that mods support and I can not ban them under your rules but they are still a deterrence to my gameplay and the other people who are just here to play my maps. Use report function, use ignore feature, use ban from hosted games. Just to remind you: http://gyazo.com/e22689eee26adf610eae2ccac2226e95 Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 11:21 4. Number 4 is our point exactly, how is it beneficial to the community to have to go to mods just to enforce a ban on our own maps? Like i have said before these are maps created by map makers, while I recognize that the admins own the game and thus they have partial say, but mods have no say in a person's map. Also if the mods make a rule against our banlist I will not follow it, rules are made by the Admins and since the mods have a clear bias, passing a rule will only represent a one sided opinion of the situation Please don't go to Mods to enforce bans, just be sure to be fair with bans. If there is going to be a rule, then it will be with the blessings of admins. ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Quantum027 First Order Objave: 1201 Od: USA	16.01.2015 - 11:57 Quantum027 Napisano od Columna Durruti, 16.01.2015 at 11:35 Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 11:21 2. enforcing a rule to remove bans not supported with screenshots to mods is the mods idea of controlling, you cant claim you aren't trying to control then you demand we provide evidence to every ban or else we lose the right to ban people. Napisano od Columna Durruti, 16.01.2015 at 10:36 Map makers have the power over their maps. This is right. They can choose to edit it the way they want (in worst case it is forcefully unpublished if it insulting or SP farming; in other cases there can be an SP deduction % applied to them). BUT, lets just remember that the banlist feature was introduced when SOME map makers complained about trolling players that led to tons of failed games. The discussion was held, supported (critically) by mods and facilitated by them to the admins, who introduced this feature. Since then, most of map makers have taken advantage of this tool to ban players that did not stick to the map/scenario rules (like WF'ing, early leavers, trolls, spammers, etc.). In some cases - emphasis on SOME - the bans were also applied without a reason (regarding specific player's enjoyment jeopardizing behavior), thus, not fulfilling the original purpose of the tool: to guarantee game enjoyment. I guess this is the issue at stake: some bans by some map makers are mere arbitrary decisions based on "I don't like this player". The original purpose wasn't this; in my opinion it is a misuse of the feature. Last but not least, just don't think that there is a division between map-makers and anti-map-makers. It is just a matter of difference in opinion as to how the banlist should be used; responsibly or for personal grief! If the mods get all the credit for the ban lists then why did you not ask that rules be put in place about why you can ban a player? If you really had so much power why did you not see this coming before? players will abuse it and now that so many people have come to you complaining about this, it now makes you think something needs to be altered. I fear that the same thing will happen here, a decision will be made to limit some form of map making or other ban list stuff and it will eventually have a negative effect on the community because it was not well thought out. That being said, I personally did not think much to people abusing it because I have the idea that the person banned should just get over it, that you would have no need to do something with a map or a game in which the maker bans you for reasons, unless its for breaking a rule and you feel sorry, but most "personal" bans are because person A is pissed at person B so person A bans person B, and vice versa usually. Napisano od Columna Durruti, 16.01.2015 at 11:35 Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 11:21 3. Why arent bans from maps/scenarios free? because you say so? why do you get a bigger voice than myself or other map makers? our voice doesnt matter as long as you and the mods have an opinion? this is what we are fighting against here, to prove that we do have a voice in things that we create (aka maps). "The sake of game enjoyment" is a load of bull, if a player is being a jerk and constantly spamming hate at me and being a negative person why is it beneficial to let them join my game, only to troll and spam the chat and be a nuisance, they arent breaking any "rule" that mods support and I can not ban them under your rules but they are still a deterrence to my gameplay and the other people who are just here to play my maps. Use report function, use ignore feature, use ban from hosted games. Just to remind you: http://gyazo.com/e22689eee26adf610eae2ccac2226e95 All my serious questions and you tell me to report players, to the mods, who are the ones fighting our system. This logic makes no sense, we are fighting here to have parts of atwar that do not depend on moderation for every decision. We are taking matters into our own hands by banning players and back before the ban list, mods did nothing to players who wfed or left or did anything that players did not like, which was why we pushed for a ban list. So instead of solving the issues we as players are supposed to go to the people who already have no intentions of acting? The system you propose would just lead to nothing. Napisano od Columna Durruti, 16.01.2015 at 11:35 Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 11:21 4. Number 4 is our point exactly, how is it beneficial to the community to have to go to mods just to enforce a ban on our own maps? Like i have said before these are maps created by map makers, while I recognize that the admins own the game and thus they have partial say, but mods have no say in a person's map. Also if the mods make a rule against our banlist I will not follow it, rules are made by the Admins and since the mods have a clear bias, passing a rule will only represent a one sided opinion of the situation Please don't go to Mods to enforce bans, just be sure to be fair with bans. If there is going to be a rule, then it will be with the blessings of admins. What is fair though? Using the word fair without guidelines is an issue. My definition of fair is far from the definition of fair in the eyes of mods. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
RaulPB Epic Clan Objave: 6360 Od: Španija	16.01.2015 - 12:52 RaulPB Napisano od Aetius, 16.01.2015 at 09:57 Admins are like Gods Then this has an easy solution: ask admins about what they find correct or what they think the solution is. ---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
RaulPB Epic Clan Objave: 6360 Od: Španija	16.01.2015 - 13:05 RaulPB Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 11:57 What is fair though? Using the word fair without guidelines is an issue. My definition of fair is far from the definition of fair in the eyes of mods. Fair is based on what laws say and judges (mods) enforce the law... but since there doesn't seem to be a "offical" written rule about it, only judges are able to give their opinion about it (in my opinion). I know, mods can be biased, make mistakes, etc. but... they're the judges here. If you provide proofs, they can't do anything about it as much biased as they want to be. ---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Milton Friedman Objave: 245 Od: Norveška	16.01.2015 - 13:43 Milton Friedman Napisano od Goblin, 16.01.2015 at 10:40 Napisano od Milton Friedman, 16.01.2015 at 10:23 I never said they weren't yours, you are just putting words in my mouth. Yes you paid to be able to publish maps on the terms set by admins. The banlist was implemented long after custom maps, and it is a separate feature. Everyone can use banlists, so you have not paid to use banlist. Therefore you will have to use it as admins think it should be used. And they have seen this thread and others like it, but they still allow the mods to regulate the banlist feature, so we can assume they don't want you to ban for silly reasons. Dude ...did you read what i wrote above and then decided to "debate" one of my posts with another of my posts. xD I debated for both sides here because you all suck and refuse to find a solution. I haven't had time to read all the posts. Why did you even bother saying an argument if you already knew why it was wrong? ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Milton Friedman Objave: 245 Od: Norveška	16.01.2015 - 13:45 Milton Friedman Napisano od KYBL, 13.01.2015 at 10:16 Napisano od Milton Friedman, 13.01.2015 at 09:25 Napisano od Tundy, 13.01.2015 at 07:38 Napisano od International, 13.01.2015 at 07:27 Napisano od Goblin, 13.01.2015 at 04:36 <image> your own ...no new rule, no new agreement can change retroactively what i payed for. Possession is not unlimited. For example, I can't (am legally not allowed to) torture animals I own, because animal protection laws. I can't build skyscrapers with my land and my money, because zoning laws. I hope the point is made: just because you own something doesn't mean you are entitled to exercise perfect control over it. The map/scenario you made is yours. Congratulations. It must still be used in a way that benefits the AtWar community as a whole. Maps are not living things, you are allowed to do anything to objects of your private property. Your arguments are based on the illusion that you are making your own stuff on your own property. Your maps are uploaded to atWar, which makes all of your rights nullified since you don't own atWar. Its just like if I am taking my phone to a friend's house. It's maybe my phone, but I can only use it, or even bring it, if I am allowed by the host, as it his property. And if I am allowed to, I will have to follow the rules set by the property owner on how I can use it, again since it is his property. In the same way, your map is hosted on atWar, which means that you will have to follow the rules set by the owners, Ivan and Amok. Now, if you want them to change the rules, that would be ok (even though it would still be a terrible idea), but you are acting like it is your right to ban everyone who isn't a cunt. So you will have to obey the rules set by the admins, or take your map and gtfo of atWar. Except there are no rules set by the admins on banlists. The only thing they set out for the banlists is its existence and its functions, they never set any rules on bans, so the mods are moderating rules which don't even fucking exist. If I pay to go to someone's house, I get to bring my phone unless they told me I cannot before I even payed. If they told me I can't bring my phone I would tell them to fuck off, not help them with their fuckign science project, and I would demand my money back. Similarly, I payed for AtWar. There are no rules set out for banlists, so I can do whatever the fuck I want with them. If you set a rule, I will protest it. I payed for this game, I expect control over what I fucking payed for. My rights are not fucking nullified when I upload to AtWar. Nobody's are. I never signed a contract saying my content belongs to the administrators, and until I do, my content belongs to me, and you can fuck off. You people are a bunch of self-entitled pricks who act as if I owe you shit. I don't owe you anything in the same way your dead grandmother doesn't owe you her fetish porn collection from her will. If you people want to pretend that my maps are public property, I'll hide them and then you can go see how much they are fucking public property. And I'm not the only one who would do this. It's like if you take a shit in the toilet, it is not public fucking property. You can keep it sitting in that toilet in your house for the next three years as your property, you can shove it right back up your widened asshole that you got from being the mod's bitch. It isn't until you flush that shit and voluntarily eject it that it is now public property. If I am not ejecting my shit, it is still fucking mine. You didn't even pay for banlist. I didn't say map belonged to atWar, but it is hosted on atWar, so you have to follow atWar rules or take your map and gtfo. Take your shitpost and stick it back up your ass. ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Cthulhu The Call of Cthulhu Objave: 1243 Od: USA	+3 16.01.2015 - 13:48 Cthulhu Napisano od RaulPB, 16.01.2015 at 13:05 ... If you provide proofs, they can't do anything about it as much biased as they want to be. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Permamuted Illyria Objave: 6176 Od: Irska	16.01.2015 - 13:55 Permamuted This thread is almost as bad/pointless as that bigwall thread of waffles... tho not as funny. ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Goblin Stalins Martians Objave: 3290 Od: Hrvatska	16.01.2015 - 13:56 Goblin Napisano od Milton Friedman, 16.01.2015 at 13:43 I haven't had time to read all the posts. Why did you even bother saying an argument if you already knew why it was wrong? Skitzophrenia maybe ...i dont know. Gota check with myself and il let you know ...actually there were wrong and good arguments, both sides presented bad ones ...i presented both sides good ones against the bad ones. ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
brianwl (Admin) Inviolable Vanguard Objave: 3379	+1 16.01.2015 - 15:25 brianwl (Admin) Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 11:57 ... All my serious questions and you tell me to report players, to the mods, who are the ones fighting our system. This logic makes no sense, we are fighting here to have parts of atwar that do not depend on moderation for every decision. We are taking matters into our own hands by banning players and back before the ban list, mods did nothing to players who wfed or left or did anything that players did not like, which was why we pushed for a ban list. So instead of solving the issues we as players are supposed to go to the people who already have no intentions of acting? The system you propose would just lead to nothing. ... I think this says it all... The point Jared is that certain members of AW community just want to argue and create problems. The mods aren't even fighting you... they're trying to help you on this one, as far as i can see. If you seriously want to 'take matters into (your) own hands' then go start your site and do what you want. Otherwise, to charge mods are biased as a justification to giving you the power to ban without any discretion does nothing to improve the AW community. I'm not arguing that mods don't exhibit bias... we all do from time to time... and that's the point of CD responding to your posts... to show you things aren't perfect, but the mods are trying to resolve matters. p.s. be sexy... and ♥ the map-makers maps. ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
RaulPB Epic Clan Objave: 6360 Od: Španija	16.01.2015 - 15:38 RaulPB Napisano od brianwl, 16.01.2015 at 15:25 Otherwise, to charge mods are biased as a justification to giving you the power to ban without any discretion. In other words, since mods have been biased somehow, map-makers also feel the need to be biased. ---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
clovis1122 Epic Clan Objave: 9043 Od: Dominikanska Republika	16.01.2015 - 16:53 clovis1122 Napisano od Columna Durruti, 16.01.2015 at 10:42 I've checked it. I feel that they were more a "group" and less a "Team". I am sure you know the difference between those two terms. Also, I don't support the ban from multiple scenarios if you only grief on one. But you will have to admit, that the relation between Moderators and MapMarkers isn't that good. It all started when this feature was implemented. I don't ever know if you are posting here because you hold any kind of hate against Map Markers. We don't know about it. Desu already proves he is not willing to negotiate about this: Citat: Go around and gather points I have not covered in all my former posts. Quote them to me. I will answer and dismantle every single one, then allowing for one page of replies I shall close this thread as it will have been discussed to death. By the point of closure you will have shouted your opinions, and I shall go clarify the official rules in response. Nothing will really change, as Pulse had made the ban list rules clear months ago, but I will be adding these same guidelines to the official post. You keep posting, which is very nice from your part and show that you are actually looking for a solution for this. There must be a solution that fits in both parts in conflict (mapmarkers and mods). Mine was just a proposal, though I wish you guys good luck finding one. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Desu Objave: 898 Od: Canada	16.01.2015 - 17:19 Desu Napisano od clovis1122, 16.01.2015 at 10:07 In the other side I don't really knows which mod is inclined because very few of them stated their opinion here. But I guess you can say Desu and Pulse are totally against the Banlist. Columna is a MapMarker, but I wonder if he support the creation of such list. On the other hand, both Pinheiro and Cthulhu were willing to argue with Tik-Tok (even though both were still inclined for the moderator team) when the Strike happened. But that is just conjectures.... people change with the time I guess, or just my interpretation of the matter. I'll assume you assumed I was against the ban list because I was arguing against a few select map makers. I want to clarify this before everyone assumes I actually am in future conversations. The ban list has my support, I just think it needs some adjustments. I am totally all for the map makers power to do whatever they want. I just want them to own up to their actions when they are wrong. Pulse, who hasn't posted, is not "totally against the banlist" either. Substantiation of actions etc, already said my position in the earlier posts. I see a couple ideas and solutions being put forward. I'll want to analyse the Committee proposal by International and a few other posts before replying, though I may not comment on the proposal at all. My initial reaction to reading through it is that it isn't needed, but someone may create a more agreeable proposal in later posts. Moderators are here to help. Try not to assume that the moderators are out to get you, we're not. Napisano od Cthulhu, 16.01.2015 at 13:48 Napisano od RaulPB, 16.01.2015 at 13:05 ... If you provide proofs, they can't do anything about it as much biased as they want to be. This is pretty spot on. Napisano od clovis1122, 16.01.2015 at 16:53 But you will have to admit, that the relation between Moderators and MapMarkers isn't that good. It all started when this feature was implemented. I don't ever know if you are posting here because you hold any kind of hate against Map Markers. We don't know about it. Desu already proves he is not willing to negotiate about this: Citat: Go around and gather points I have not covered in all my former posts. Quote them to me. I will answer and dismantle every single one, then allowing for one page of replies I shall close this thread as it will have been discussed to death. By the point of closure you will have shouted your opinions, and I shall go clarify the official rules in response. Nothing will really change, as Pulse had made the ban list rules clear months ago, but I will be adding these same guidelines to the official post. The moderators do not hold any sort of grudge against map makers. They make content, we oversee the game in its totality. That's about it. The post I talked about in that quote is still coming, but I'm looking through the now eight pages of posts and wonder if I should have taken it up to argue every point. I'll probably just cut down to things nobody has replied to. I do look forward to reading solutions though. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Tundy Salt Industries Objave: 5885	16.01.2015 - 17:46 Tundy Napisano od Milton Friedman, 16.01.2015 at 13:45 -snip- I seriously think that you are one of those autistic kids that cry when they get out of their routines. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Quantum027 First Order Objave: 1201 Od: USA	16.01.2015 - 19:06 Quantum027 Desu how can you say you are totally for map makers to do whatever they want then criticize unclear rules and needing map makers to give screen shot evidence for every ban. You can not get it both ways. Also the big reason why I do not want this is that all my bans would be wasted, even though I have all legitimate bans (i think i do at least) and i would lose them all because we (map makers) agreed months ago that we did not need a evidence. Note, before the Senate was closed, we kept screen shot records of our bans, some 120 banned players, but since the clan is gone all that evidence is gone also. This would mean i would be unbanning like 300 people who will join my maps and will troll them. I do not want this to happen. Everyone keeps talking about "for the enjoyment of the game" but how far do you take that? Are my enjoyments and the enjoyments of others less than the enjoyment of a rule breaker? Someone who trolls games and forces remakes does not have intentions to make the game more enjoyable but for some reason they are defended with that mindset. I encourage you all to look at what is being said and see that it will just create a negative effect and set us as map makers back 6 months on our lists Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Columna Durruti Inglourious Basterds Objave: 6899 Od: Kosta Rika	+1 16.01.2015 - 19:12 Columna Durruti Napisano od clovis1122, 16.01.2015 at 16:53 I don't ever know if you are posting here because you hold any kind of hate against Map Markers. Check my profile and have a look at the 17 maps and 8 scenarios I have published. I'm also working on the following projects: Resistance & Revolution: about revolutionary movements in Latin America The Island: about terrorist attacks on an island state Shegu: ancient map with emphasis on naval battles Tank Assault: a map/scenario with emphasis on tank warfare Please do not follow this artificial disjunction between "Mods" and "Map Makers". It doesn't hold. ...and yes, I would like to have a solution to this issue. I have my stand on the banlist feature and its use. ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
clovis1122 Epic Clan Objave: 9043 Od: Dominikanska Republika	16.01.2015 - 19:24 clovis1122 Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 19:06 Desu how can you say you are totally for map makers to do whatever they want then criticize unclear rules and needing map makers to give screen shot evidence for every ban. You can not get it both ways. Also the big reason why I do not want this is that all my bans would be wasted, even though I have all legitimate bans (i think i do at least) and i would lose them all because we (map makers) agreed months ago that we did not need a evidence. Note, before the Senate was closed, we kept screen shot records of our bans, some 120 banned players, but since the clan is gone all that evidence is gone also. This would mean i would be unbanning like 300 people who will join my maps and will troll them. I do not want this to happen. Everyone keeps talking about "for the enjoyment of the game" but how far do you take that? Are my enjoyments and the enjoyments of others less than the enjoyment of a rule breaker? Someone who trolls games and forces remakes does not have intentions to make the game more enjoyable but for some reason they are defended with that mindset. I encourage you all to look at what is being said and see that it will just create a negative effect and set us as map makers back 6 months on our lists I don't see the problem. If that person grief again you can simply take a better SS and ban him again. How exactly it affects you that one person that was banned is no longer banned? How it affects your enjoyment. Napisano od Columna Durruti, 16.01.2015 at 19:12 Check my profile and have a look at the 17 maps and 8 scenarios I have published. I'm also working on the following projects: Resistance & Revolution: about revolutionary movements in Latin America The Island: about terrorist attacks on an island state Shegu: ancient map with emphasis on naval battles Tank Assault: a map/scenario with emphasis on tank warfare Please do not follow this artificial disjunction between "Mods" and "Map Makers". It doesn't hold. ...and yes, I would like to have a solution to this issue. I have my stand on the banlist feature and its use. I don't think the police would believe you if you say " I m innocent!!!" Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Cthulhu The Call of Cthulhu Objave: 1243 Od: USA	+2 16.01.2015 - 23:57 Cthulhu Let us not forget how the banlist came to be about. They were a few post around, but the major push came from the players, not the mapmakers. They were constantly telling me and other mods about how some players were ruining their UN games. While it is allowed to go rogue by game rules, we can't do anything about it, so we got together and came up together along with the admin to come up with a solution - the map banlist. Mods are not against anyone, because if you forget, we actually do love this game. We want it to be enjoyable for everybody, and one of our concerns was that mapmakers get big-headed and start banning players for dumb reasons to bully the players. Just remember that players are assumed innocent until proven guilty. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
RaulPB Epic Clan Objave: 6360 Od: Španija	17.01.2015 - 05:49 RaulPB Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 19:06 we (map makers) agreed months ago that we did not need a evidence. No comments... or... yeah, just one comment: Good job on deciding by your own Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 19:06 Everyone keeps talking about "for the enjoyment of the game" but how far do you take that? Are my enjoyments and the enjoyments of others less than the enjoyment of a rule breaker? Then provide something that proves his troll behavior or else your accusation is not legit... That way you'll be doing a favour to yourself and to the rest of the community... but as in court, you need proofs when you accuse someone or else people might start to accuse for no reason and expect them all to be found guilty and therefor, banned for no reason... Napisano od Quantum027, 16.01.2015 at 19:06 Someone who trolls games and forces remakes does not have intentions to make the game more enjoyable but for some reason they are defended with that mindset. Those aren't the ones being defended, why don't you get it? We're defending the ones that have been banned or will get banned for no reason. Snap out of it! ---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
clovis1122 Epic Clan Objave: 9043 Od: Dominikanska Republika	17.01.2015 - 06:28 clovis1122 As far as I can see, none of the mods want to recognize the impact of the "Strike" in the creation on ban-list, but rather say "It was made because mods made it possible". I don't know about the matter, which is also off-topic. Either way, thanks for show interest in the negotiation. Now is time for Map Markers to stand clear. The other side already clarified their points, but as far as I can see the Map Markers are very divided between the need of evidence or not. Maybe an official reply which have the support of the majority of the Map Markers involved? It could be planned in PM. Preferably one that answer the following questions: 1. Purpose: Why are we complaining? What do we want? Reason for make this kind of post + brief explanation of the matter. 2. Arguments: Why what we say is right? Provide arguments about your reasoning. Also, introduce the main idea of this post. 3. "Thesis" (Blame google traductor if it i bad written): What are the high and bad of our proposal? You must analyze both the good and bad points of the proposal. His effects at both short and long term in the community AND the map / Scenarios mechanic. A graphic like this would give it more credibly: http://s157.photobucket.com/user/vsatwar/media/awcommunity_zps37d1a378.jpg.html 4. Conclusion: Anything else? For those topics that are second-line among the initial purpose (ex: Is there any disagreement or different proposal in which the MapMarkers disagree or are not very united in?) For example, as far as I've see both Aetius and jared support the ban without evidence, while the rest does not. Please clarify those points in the conclusion. On a more important note, that post need to be discussed among the Map Markers. Posting something incomplete or that lead to fights among the own map markers will only show how disunited you guys are. Something that doesn't answer the original purposes and plus, need an Ad Hoc response will also be taken into account. Is good to have many leaders on one side, but I might want to say that most of the Latin American countries didn't progressed exactly because that. We call them "caudillos". I hope you guys can deal out with those "caudillos" and avoid them posting here unnecessary replies. All I can say. Guys, be serious!!!! Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Milton Friedman Objave: 245 Od: Norveška	17.01.2015 - 07:39 Milton Friedman Napisano od Tundy, 16.01.2015 at 17:46 Napisano od Milton Friedman, 16.01.2015 at 13:45 -snip- I seriously think that you are one of those autistic kids that cry when they get out of their routines. Nice rebuttal. Its no wonder mapmakers don't get more power when half of them are like you.... ---- Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Tundy Salt Industries Objave: 5885	17.01.2015 - 10:10 Tundy Napisano od clovis1122, 17.01.2015 at 06:28 For example, as far as I've see both Aetius and jared support the ban without evidence, while the rest does not. Please clarify those points in the conclusion. All map makers support total control over bans. Some other map makers like me and goblin would be satisfied with the idea about a group of map makers (and Columna Durruti) taking over the public appeal system Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
RaulPB Epic Clan Objave: 6360 Od: Španija	+1 17.01.2015 - 10:21 RaulPB Napisano od Tundy, 17.01.2015 at 10:10 Some other map makers like me and goblin would be satisfied with the idea about a group of map makers (and Columna Durruti) taking over the public appeal system A public appeal system where only map makers got to give their opinion as unbiased as possible, even if they know each other and share the same feeling of being controled by mods (except for CD)? Yeah, sounds reasonable to me... ---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
Tundy Salt Industries Objave: 5885	17.01.2015 - 10:23 Tundy Napisano od Milton Friedman, 17.01.2015 at 07:39 Its no wonder mapmakers don't get more power when half of them are like you.... You may think you are a majority but you are not. this goes to the mods and the rest of the community that chooses the oppose map makers. You know how many people have played GGG? 23,000. Death of rome? 2400 King of the hill? 3600 All of those people have played my map at one time or another, some of them played again and again. If i was really abusing the ban feature I would have at least 100 reports. The numbers don't lie swash, you and the rest of the people in this topic are a minority. 5 in every 10 scenario players has played our maps at one point or another (From members of the cartography society), assuming the other individual map makers disagree with us (But they probably will agree with us) All of the green sections are former senate members. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...
clovis1122 Epic Clan Objave: 9043 Od: Dominikanska Republika	17.01.2015 - 11:03 clovis1122 Napisano od Tundy, 17.01.2015 at 10:10 I can say your post doesn't meet the requirements that I've asked. Please talk with other Map Markers, and then come back here with one reply. Do no post about "one part" of the ideas.If you want to add your opinion about certain matter, do it right before the reply I've asked is posted. Else we are going non where. Citat: Is good to have many leaders on one side, but I might want to say that most of the Latin American countries didn't progressed exactly because that. We call them "caudillos". I hope you guys can deal out with those "caudillos" and avoid them posting here unnecessary replies. Unless you want this threat to go non where, you should avoid unnecessary replies. If you want me to be more clear, then I will say it again: Avoid unnecessary replies. Učitavanje... Učitavanje...

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